<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Compass, the 960 CSS framework, and Semantic Markup</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.carbonfive.com/2009/03/html/compass-960-semantics/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.carbonfive.com/2009/03/html/compass-960-semantics</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 07 Sep 2010 23:23:41 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: how to integrate compass into your default pinax project &#8212; be present now</title>
		<link>http://blog.carbonfive.com/2009/03/html/compass-960-semantics/comment-page-1#comment-913</link>
		<dc:creator>how to integrate compass into your default pinax project &#8212; be present now</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 03:33:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.carbonfive.com/?p=347#comment-913</guid>
		<description>[...] ton of documentation around, for example this is what got me into it a while [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] ton of documentation around, for example this is what got me into it a while [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Frankquin</title>
		<link>http://blog.carbonfive.com/2009/03/html/compass-960-semantics/comment-page-1#comment-793</link>
		<dc:creator>Frankquin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 May 2009 22:51:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.carbonfive.com/?p=347#comment-793</guid>
		<description>Hi, nice tutorial -- but I don&#039;t even know how to get my setup running. Got apache with virtual hosts running local, installed ruby, installed haml. The verification of sass says  so I don&#039;t know what to do. I&#039;m trying ruby for the very first time. I don&#039;t know where to start. Do I have to build a ruby app in one of the vhosts to use compass? I googled for hours but couldn&#039;t find a beginners tutorial, step ba step, for a virtual &quot;project&quot;. Phrases like &quot;path/to/your/app&quot; really confuse me because I don&#039;t understand what I have to do. What app? I thought I could use ruby localy, just like a shell script. That is the way I tried the first ruby &quot;hello world&quot; script. Can any one help me? I want to write a &quot;compass for dummies&quot; tutorial, but I feel like I&#039;m completely lost, after all these hours of reading and experimenting. I did HTML and CSS by hand and suddenly found compass. After all it is not so trivial as I thought :o) If any one can help me, I&#039;m very willing to write everything down in a tutorial, even edit the wiki. Thanks everyone. -- And ruby got me curious!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, nice tutorial &#8212; but I don&#8217;t even know how to get my setup running. Got apache with virtual hosts running local, installed ruby, installed haml. The verification of sass says  so I don&#8217;t know what to do. I&#8217;m trying ruby for the very first time. I don&#8217;t know where to start. Do I have to build a ruby app in one of the vhosts to use compass? I googled for hours but couldn&#8217;t find a beginners tutorial, step ba step, for a virtual &#8220;project&#8221;. Phrases like &#8220;path/to/your/app&#8221; really confuse me because I don&#8217;t understand what I have to do. What app? I thought I could use ruby localy, just like a shell script. That is the way I tried the first ruby &#8220;hello world&#8221; script. Can any one help me? I want to write a &#8220;compass for dummies&#8221; tutorial, but I feel like I&#8217;m completely lost, after all these hours of reading and experimenting. I did HTML and CSS by hand and suddenly found compass. After all it is not so trivial as I thought <img src='http://blog.carbonfive.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_surprised.gif' alt=':o' class='wp-smiley' /> ) If any one can help me, I&#8217;m very willing to write everything down in a tutorial, even edit the wiki. Thanks everyone. &#8212; And ruby got me curious!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: crayz</title>
		<link>http://blog.carbonfive.com/2009/03/html/compass-960-semantics/comment-page-1#comment-296</link>
		<dc:creator>crayz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 23:55:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.carbonfive.com/?p=347#comment-296</guid>
		<description>FYI, I got an error trying to install the bleeding edge version of haml (2.0.9 worked, but is incompatible with compass). The error was:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
(in /private/var/root/haml)
dyld: NSLinkModule() error
dyld: Symbol not found: _RARRAY_LEN
  Referenced from: /opt/local/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/ruby-prof-0.7.3/lib/ruby_prof.bundle
  Expected in: flat namespace

Trace/BPT trap
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

My hackish fix was to uninstall ruby-prof and then re-run the &#039;rake install&#039;. Just posting here in case anyone runs into a similar problem</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FYI, I got an error trying to install the bleeding edge version of haml (2.0.9 worked, but is incompatible with compass). The error was:</p>
<blockquote><p>
(in /private/var/root/haml)<br />
dyld: NSLinkModule() error<br />
dyld: Symbol not found: _RARRAY_LEN<br />
  Referenced from: /opt/local/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/ruby-prof-0.7.3/lib/ruby_prof.bundle<br />
  Expected in: flat namespace</p>
<p>Trace/BPT trap
</p></blockquote>
<p>My hackish fix was to uninstall ruby-prof and then re-run the &#8216;rake install&#8217;. Just posting here in case anyone runs into a similar problem</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Pauli Price</title>
		<link>http://blog.carbonfive.com/2009/03/html/compass-960-semantics/comment-page-1#comment-285</link>
		<dc:creator>Pauli Price</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 18:39:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.carbonfive.com/?p=347#comment-285</guid>
		<description>Aaron,

Thanks so much for creating this post.  Like you I have been attracted to grid based css frameworks, but have been extremely reticent to add the purely presentational markup to my (x)html pages.  

I&#039;m going to grab your example and adapt it to my current layout project, as soon as I get home tonight.  

@Marty - what you&#039;re suggesting &quot;just renaming them ourselves in the CSS, simply doing a text replace with more semantic names?&quot; won&#039;t work cleanly.  Consider the case where two semantic elements in your code use .grid_4 layout -- say a callout box, and an ad container -- you don&#039;t want to give them the same class name, because you don&#039;t want to permanantly constrain them to be the same size, however, in the current layout they are the same size.  Using your suggested text replace plan, there&#039;s no solution other than to use some &#039;presentational&#039; name.  Might as well leave it as &#039;grid_4&#039; in that case.

What Aaron&#039;s method does is leave you with 

.callout {
/* your custom styles */
/* grid_4 styles */
}

.ad-container {
/* your custom styles */
/* grid_4 styles */
}

What non-programmers such as yourself would probably use is a simple &#039;include&#039; syntax, like this:

.callout {
/* your custom styles */
@filter-include(framework-name, grid_4);
}

.ad-container {
/* your custom styles */
@filter-include(framework-name, grid_4);
}

Run the file through a filter to transform your input css into a final merged css.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aaron,</p>
<p>Thanks so much for creating this post.  Like you I have been attracted to grid based css frameworks, but have been extremely reticent to add the purely presentational markup to my (x)html pages.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m going to grab your example and adapt it to my current layout project, as soon as I get home tonight.  </p>
<p>@Marty &#8211; what you&#8217;re suggesting &#8220;just renaming them ourselves in the CSS, simply doing a text replace with more semantic names?&#8221; won&#8217;t work cleanly.  Consider the case where two semantic elements in your code use .grid_4 layout &#8212; say a callout box, and an ad container &#8212; you don&#8217;t want to give them the same class name, because you don&#8217;t want to permanantly constrain them to be the same size, however, in the current layout they are the same size.  Using your suggested text replace plan, there&#8217;s no solution other than to use some &#8216;presentational&#8217; name.  Might as well leave it as &#8216;grid_4&#8242; in that case.</p>
<p>What Aaron&#8217;s method does is leave you with </p>
<p>.callout {<br />
/* your custom styles */<br />
/* grid_4 styles */<br />
}</p>
<p>.ad-container {<br />
/* your custom styles */<br />
/* grid_4 styles */<br />
}</p>
<p>What non-programmers such as yourself would probably use is a simple &#8216;include&#8217; syntax, like this:</p>
<p>.callout {<br />
/* your custom styles */<br />
@filter-include(framework-name, grid_4);<br />
}</p>
<p>.ad-container {<br />
/* your custom styles */<br />
@filter-include(framework-name, grid_4);<br />
}</p>
<p>Run the file through a filter to transform your input css into a final merged css.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Marty Thornley</title>
		<link>http://blog.carbonfive.com/2009/03/html/compass-960-semantics/comment-page-1#comment-279</link>
		<dc:creator>Marty Thornley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 08:38:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.carbonfive.com/?p=347#comment-279</guid>
		<description>I like the idea of the grid systems but have avoided them for the ugly grid_12 type names that we are stuck with. I love the idea of a mix or somehow transforming the ugly into semantic, but for someone who has no clue about Ruby, or any of the command jargon you need to use, I don&#039;t see it being much of a solution. I&#039;m sure it works for someone with more of a programming background, but just adds another level of confusion for me.

I like where it&#039;s going though. What I could see working is some kind of intermediary where I could somehow easily type in &#039;.content = .container_12′ and then I could just use class=&quot;content&quot; or &#039;.menu = .grid_4′ and so on. Does that make sense? Seems like those would be easy enough strings to parse with a simple script.

But would any of this save any time over just renaming them ourselves in the CSS, simply doing a text replace with more semantic names?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the idea of the grid systems but have avoided them for the ugly grid_12 type names that we are stuck with. I love the idea of a mix or somehow transforming the ugly into semantic, but for someone who has no clue about Ruby, or any of the command jargon you need to use, I don&#8217;t see it being much of a solution. I&#8217;m sure it works for someone with more of a programming background, but just adds another level of confusion for me.</p>
<p>I like where it&#8217;s going though. What I could see working is some kind of intermediary where I could somehow easily type in &#8216;.content = .container_12′ and then I could just use class=&#8221;content&#8221; or &#8216;.menu = .grid_4′ and so on. Does that make sense? Seems like those would be easy enough strings to parse with a simple script.</p>
<p>But would any of this save any time over just renaming them ourselves in the CSS, simply doing a text replace with more semantic names?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: cs</title>
		<link>http://blog.carbonfive.com/2009/03/html/compass-960-semantics/comment-page-1#comment-276</link>
		<dc:creator>cs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 13:01:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.carbonfive.com/?p=347#comment-276</guid>
		<description>great work, a long awaited solution!
thanks a lot!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>great work, a long awaited solution!<br />
thanks a lot!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Aaron Brown</title>
		<link>http://blog.carbonfive.com/2009/03/html/compass-960-semantics/comment-page-1#comment-275</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 00:35:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.carbonfive.com/?p=347#comment-275</guid>
		<description>@Chris:

Thanks for the reply. I hear your point about the heavyweight ascription of &quot;code&quot; to Sass. My goal was to show how Sass enables one to employ &quot;coding&quot; best practices, whether they be culled from scripting practices or more robust traditional software engineering practices. Sass is definitely lightweight and straightforward to pick up. 

@Woody:

Thanks for the comment. My main point in the article was to show how you didn&#039;t have to sacrifice the semantics of your HTML to use CSS frameworks. Also, as I tried to show, I don&#039;t think Sass produces convoluted CSS at all. I think the DSL does a great job of providing a variation on CSS that will allow anyone familiar with the latter to easily transition to Sass. True, you might have to deal with a few abstractions, but for me that doesn&#039;t necessarily equate to convolution. Further, it&#039;s up to the developer to decide if he or she wants to leverage Sass&#039;s scripting capabilities. Likely, if he or she isn&#039;t  interested in building modularized, reusable Sass libraries, the Sass files won&#039;t look much different than regular CSS files. In the end I proved to myself that there is no sacrifice necessary, one can maintain his or her semantic HTML and gain access to, I would argue, more expressive CSS via Sass.

I do feel strongly that semantic (X)HTML is a benefit to the web community. The purpose of a document is to describe the structure of meaningful data. Semantically viable markup reaps benefits in areas like web standards, accessibility, and SEO. There is no real reason the markup should be cluttered with presentational concerns. I would argue that it is the conflation of semantics and presentation that is convoluted, rather than vice versa. I&#039;m not entirely sure what you mean by &quot;just text&quot;, if you can explain further I could more readily address your question. 

To reiterate my view, HTML should be meaningful and independent of any presentational context. It&#039;s exactly this separation of concerns that gives designers the power to employ CSS and craft myriad final presentations of the markup on varied client platforms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Chris:</p>
<p>Thanks for the reply. I hear your point about the heavyweight ascription of &#8220;code&#8221; to Sass. My goal was to show how Sass enables one to employ &#8220;coding&#8221; best practices, whether they be culled from scripting practices or more robust traditional software engineering practices. Sass is definitely lightweight and straightforward to pick up. </p>
<p>@Woody:</p>
<p>Thanks for the comment. My main point in the article was to show how you didn&#8217;t have to sacrifice the semantics of your HTML to use CSS frameworks. Also, as I tried to show, I don&#8217;t think Sass produces convoluted CSS at all. I think the DSL does a great job of providing a variation on CSS that will allow anyone familiar with the latter to easily transition to Sass. True, you might have to deal with a few abstractions, but for me that doesn&#8217;t necessarily equate to convolution. Further, it&#8217;s up to the developer to decide if he or she wants to leverage Sass&#8217;s scripting capabilities. Likely, if he or she isn&#8217;t  interested in building modularized, reusable Sass libraries, the Sass files won&#8217;t look much different than regular CSS files. In the end I proved to myself that there is no sacrifice necessary, one can maintain his or her semantic HTML and gain access to, I would argue, more expressive CSS via Sass.</p>
<p>I do feel strongly that semantic (X)HTML is a benefit to the web community. The purpose of a document is to describe the structure of meaningful data. Semantically viable markup reaps benefits in areas like web standards, accessibility, and SEO. There is no real reason the markup should be cluttered with presentational concerns. I would argue that it is the conflation of semantics and presentation that is convoluted, rather than vice versa. I&#8217;m not entirely sure what you mean by &#8220;just text&#8221;, if you can explain further I could more readily address your question. </p>
<p>To reiterate my view, HTML should be meaningful and independent of any presentational context. It&#8217;s exactly this separation of concerns that gives designers the power to employ CSS and craft myriad final presentations of the markup on varied client platforms.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Woody Gilk</title>
		<link>http://blog.carbonfive.com/2009/03/html/compass-960-semantics/comment-page-1#comment-274</link>
		<dc:creator>Woody Gilk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 23:43:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.carbonfive.com/?p=347#comment-274</guid>
		<description>So you trade un-semantic HTML for convoluted CSS. Can one really argue that one is better than the other, considering that a HTML page without a CSS file is, well... just text?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So you trade un-semantic HTML for convoluted CSS. Can one really argue that one is better than the other, considering that a HTML page without a CSS file is, well&#8230; just text?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chris Eppstein</title>
		<link>http://blog.carbonfive.com/2009/03/html/compass-960-semantics/comment-page-1#comment-273</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Eppstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 21:13:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.carbonfive.com/?p=347#comment-273</guid>
		<description>While it is certainly our goal to bring many of the facilities of programming to the stylesheet world, I think it&#039;s incorrect to call Sass &quot;code&quot;. It is an alternate syntax for writing stylesheets and it has a lightweight scripting facility.

Regarding the bloat that comes from prevalent use of mixins, I can tell you that if you use gzip compression, there&#039;s almost no difference in file size of the compressed files. Also, it&#039;s quite likely that a future version of sass will contain an optimization step that combines styles and selectors where possible. Lastly, it&#039;s certainly possible to hand optimize your stylesheets using some of the lower-level mixins like +grid-unit-base if you want to.

Despite the few reports to the contrary, I can tell you that Sass scales to large sites very well. I know because I run one (6.7k lines of sass, in 61 files). It is the use of abstraction and encapsulation that makes maintaining these stylesheets easier -- not harder.

Great post! Thanks for spreading the word.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While it is certainly our goal to bring many of the facilities of programming to the stylesheet world, I think it&#8217;s incorrect to call Sass &#8220;code&#8221;. It is an alternate syntax for writing stylesheets and it has a lightweight scripting facility.</p>
<p>Regarding the bloat that comes from prevalent use of mixins, I can tell you that if you use gzip compression, there&#8217;s almost no difference in file size of the compressed files. Also, it&#8217;s quite likely that a future version of sass will contain an optimization step that combines styles and selectors where possible. Lastly, it&#8217;s certainly possible to hand optimize your stylesheets using some of the lower-level mixins like +grid-unit-base if you want to.</p>
<p>Despite the few reports to the contrary, I can tell you that Sass scales to large sites very well. I know because I run one (6.7k lines of sass, in 61 files). It is the use of abstraction and encapsulation that makes maintaining these stylesheets easier &#8212; not harder.</p>
<p>Great post! Thanks for spreading the word.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Compass, the 960 CSS framework, and Semantic Markup at Carbon Five &#8230; &#124; Best Web Gallery</title>
		<link>http://blog.carbonfive.com/2009/03/html/compass-960-semantics/comment-page-1#comment-269</link>
		<dc:creator>Compass, the 960 CSS framework, and Semantic Markup at Carbon Five &#8230; &#124; Best Web Gallery</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 05:33:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.carbonfive.com/?p=347#comment-269</guid>
		<description>[...] Compass, the 960 CSS framework, and Semantic Markup at Carbon Five &#8230;  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Compass, the 960 CSS framework, and Semantic Markup at Carbon Five &#8230;  [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
